In this episode, Liz discusses fan theories about The Prince Who Was Promised! What is this prophecy about? Is this "Prince" connected to Azor Ahai? Who could possibly be the Prince Who was Promised? Whether you think it's Daenerys Targaryen, Jon Snow, or someone else, take a listen!. Leave a comment on the dedicated episode page on TheWesterosiprimer.com and share your thoughts on the matter!
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00:01 --> 00:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Westerosi Primer.
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01:01 --> 01:07 [SPEAKER_00]: Greetings fellow accolades, welcome to another episode of the Westerosi Primer, my name is Liz.
01:07 --> 01:09 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're new to this podcast, welcome.
01:10 --> 01:12 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you enjoy this journey of all things Westeros.
01:13 --> 01:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And in this episode, I'll be talking about Azorahai, the prince that was promised, and why book readers care so much about them.
01:21 --> 01:27 [SPEAKER_00]: As always, there will be spoilers for people who have not read any of the books connected to a song of Ice and Fire.
01:28 --> 01:36 [SPEAKER_00]: There may also be spoilers for Game of Thrones, House of the Dragon, a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, and other shows adapted by HBO Max in the future.
01:37 --> 01:40 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're okay with this, then please continue listening.
01:41 --> 01:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Before I get into the main topic, I'd like to start this episode with, Important Announcements.
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02:13 --> 02:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Now onto this week's episode, Azorahai and the Prince that was promised.
02:18 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_00]: In this episode, I want to cover what exactly is this theory?
02:22 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a difference between the two titles?
02:25 --> 02:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Who are the ones people say could be the Prince?
02:29 --> 02:35 [SPEAKER_00]: What if any evidence exists in the books or George's interviews to point who the Prince is?
02:36 --> 02:39 [SPEAKER_00]: First off, we hear both terms throughout the saga.
02:40 --> 02:44 [SPEAKER_00]: characters like MelSandra use the two terms interchangeably.
02:44 --> 02:49 [SPEAKER_00]: This is likely why a lot of fans also view the terms in that way.
02:49 --> 02:54 [SPEAKER_00]: However, they're technically separate figures that have some similarities to each other.
02:55 --> 03:04 [SPEAKER_00]: This means that we need to talk about who exactly these figures are before we can dive into who allegedly these figures are according to
03:09 --> 03:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Azora High is a hero in legends.
03:13 --> 03:21 [SPEAKER_00]: He had a burning sword called Lightbringer, which is in stories that the people of Ashai and followers of Rulour often tell.
03:21 --> 03:26 [SPEAKER_00]: This comes up several times in Game of Thrones, which I think was good that they did.
03:27 --> 03:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So I imagine several of you who have never read the books would have been confused to some degree about this.
03:33 --> 03:38 [SPEAKER_00]: In other words, Azora High is a savior, or hero figure mainly from a shy.
03:39 --> 03:41 [SPEAKER_00]: This does make sense which I'll explain a bit.
03:42 --> 03:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Like many famous weapons, Azora High's weapon has a name, and it is called Lightbringer.
03:47 --> 03:51 [SPEAKER_00]: We saw a reference to this in episode 2-01 of Game of Thrones.
03:53 --> 03:58 [SPEAKER_00]: In that episode, we finally meet the much referred to Middle-Breath in Brother Stanis.
03:58 --> 04:03 [SPEAKER_00]: We are also introduced to Melasandra and her religion in a very dramatic fashion.
04:04 --> 04:08 [SPEAKER_00]: We also see Stanis being told to pull a sword out of a fire pit.
04:09 --> 04:10 [SPEAKER_00]: What was the deal with that?
04:11 --> 04:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that was Melisandre's attempt to recreate light-bringer because she believes Stanis is Azor a high return.
04:18 --> 04:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Azor a high comes across as being a messianic figure along the lines of King Arthur with his promised return.
04:26 --> 04:30 [SPEAKER_00]: And of course he had a legendary weapon, only he could use.
04:30 --> 04:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Lightbringer is a subject of notable stories, too.
04:34 --> 04:38 [SPEAKER_00]: One particularly famous one is how the sword was created in the first place.
04:39 --> 04:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll just recount the story briefly.
04:42 --> 04:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Similar to how storms and was a castle that had to be rebuilt multiple times before the existing castle was created, it took multiple times to forge lightbringer.
04:52 --> 04:57 [SPEAKER_00]: In this case, he had to make it three times before the sword could be completed.
04:58 --> 05:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Azorahai himself did the smithing work and spent a hundred days in nights working on it.
05:03 --> 05:06 [SPEAKER_00]: You have to temper the sword at the end.
05:06 --> 05:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Normally, you just do it in water, but it broke previously.
05:11 --> 05:14 [SPEAKER_00]: He had to use his own wife, Nissa, to do the job.
05:15 --> 05:20 [SPEAKER_00]: He literally stabs her through the heart with it, and her soul combined with the steel of the sword.
05:21 --> 05:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Allegedly, the sword can do all sorts
05:28 --> 05:34 [SPEAKER_00]: So basically, it's like other famous weapons you can think of, such as Excalibur, Yoleneer, et cetera.
05:34 --> 05:40 [SPEAKER_00]: You might be thinking that sure, this is a crazy weapon that needed a woman's death to be produced.
05:41 --> 05:42 [SPEAKER_00]: But what's the big deal?
05:43 --> 05:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Lots of important weapons kill monsters and stuff.
05:46 --> 05:52 [SPEAKER_00]: As I stated earlier, Azora High is notable in a shy and the followers of Rallor.
05:53 --> 05:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Various books in a shy for tell that Azora High will be reborn.
05:57 --> 06:05 [SPEAKER_00]: It says that he will be reborn as a warrior who can draw light-bringer from a fire when the stars bleed and the cold winds blow.
06:06 --> 06:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And as I mentioned earlier, there was that first episode we're introduced to Sanis and Melisandra.
06:11 --> 06:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Stars Bleeding is interpreted as the Red Shooting Star featured in that same season, which is also mentioned in the show.
06:19 --> 06:23 [SPEAKER_00]: As for the cold winds blowing, well, I think we all know what that means.
06:24 --> 06:30 [SPEAKER_00]: You may not be wondering, okay, Azorahai and his magic sword are interesting, but what else is there?
06:31 --> 06:37 [SPEAKER_00]: Legends claim that basically he'll be born again with his magic sword and use it to save the world from darkness.
06:37 --> 06:41 [SPEAKER_00]: If he fails in this quest, the world will fall into darkness due, etc.
06:42 --> 06:45 [SPEAKER_00]: For a prophecy about a Messianic hero, he fits the bill.
06:46 --> 06:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, who exactly is the prince that was promised?
06:50 --> 06:53 [SPEAKER_00]: This person is another figure connected to a prophecy.
06:53 --> 06:57 [SPEAKER_00]: The legend and stories about this mysterious figure is a known in origin.
06:58 --> 07:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Melisandra in the novels brings up this figure claiming that this prince was for 12, 5000 years ago.
07:04 --> 07:12 [SPEAKER_00]: As I stated earlier, Melisandra tended to use this term and Azora high interchangeably, but she uses Azora high more often.
07:13 --> 07:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Something that TV show fans don't know is that in the book's other characters have mentioned the prints.
07:20 --> 07:22 [SPEAKER_00]: One is Mastor Amen.
07:22 --> 07:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully, if you're listening to this podcast, you will recall who Mastor Amen is.
07:27 --> 07:35 [SPEAKER_00]: But if it's been too long since you watched Game of Thrones, he is the old-blind Mastor at the wall when John Snow arrives in season one.
07:36 --> 07:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Amen appears to be familiar with his prophecy.
07:38 --> 07:46 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, there's a Samuel Tarlie POV chapter in one of the novels where he talks to Sam about this prophecy.
07:47 --> 07:57 [SPEAKER_00]: He mentions that the legend of the prince includes mentions of a bleeding star and smoke and salt, heralding that the prince that was promised was coming.
07:58 --> 08:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Another character that is in the books but not in the TV show is another person named Archmacer Marwin.
08:06 --> 08:12 [SPEAKER_00]: You might be saying I've heard of Masters and even the Grand Master, but what is an Archmaster?
08:13 --> 08:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And Archmaster basically means a Master who has developed expert knowledge or mastery of a particular field of knowledge.
08:21 --> 08:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Marwin is also referred to by some as Marwin the Mage because his mastery is of the higher mysteries.
08:29 --> 08:33 [SPEAKER_00]: In other words, he's the closest thing to an expert on magic you'll see from the set it all.
08:34 --> 08:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Hence, he's occasionally called the Mage.
08:37 --> 08:43 [SPEAKER_00]: You shouldn't be too surprised that a person with this sort of academic interest would be familiar with all sorts of legends and prophecies.
08:44 --> 08:49 [SPEAKER_00]: He was also familiar with the same legend and is aware of the claimed signs of the Prince's
08:50 --> 08:58 [SPEAKER_00]: You can make a case that maybe these two figures are just tied together because of loose similarities, but there's no real proof that they're the same figure.
08:59 --> 09:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's perfectly fair.
09:01 --> 09:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But now let's talk about the next thing.
09:03 --> 09:06 [SPEAKER_00]: It's clear that there are people who genuinely believe this is a prophecy.
09:07 --> 09:14 [SPEAKER_00]: We know there's a huge apocalypse event involving the others or white walkers as they are called in the TV show.
09:14 --> 09:17 [SPEAKER_00]: It just makes the reader wonder if it's possibly true.
09:18 --> 09:23 [SPEAKER_00]: The apparent signs are happening that this person, whoever they are, exists.
09:24 --> 09:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Question is who is it?
09:26 --> 09:33 [SPEAKER_00]: There are six different characters that get mentioned in the novels, or fans themselves discuss as possibly being the Prince.
09:33 --> 09:42 [SPEAKER_00]: They are regular Targaryen, Egg on Targaryen, Victorian Greyjoy, Stannis Baratheon, Daenerys Targaryen, and John Snow.
09:43 --> 09:52 [SPEAKER_00]: As a reminder, the claimed signs are, he will be born after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.
09:53 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_00]: He should be born again amidst smoke and salt.
09:56 --> 09:59 [SPEAKER_00]: He shall awake dragons out of stone.
09:59 --> 10:01 [SPEAKER_00]: He shall draw from the fire a burning sword,
10:03 --> 10:09 [SPEAKER_00]: On top of that, Aries II and Riella were arranged to be married, despite not liking each other by their own father.
10:10 --> 10:17 [SPEAKER_00]: That's because a woods witch made a prophecy that the Prince who was promised would be descended from Aries and Riella.
10:18 --> 10:24 [SPEAKER_00]: There were consequences to this, of course, as their marriage resulted in their three children, Riegar Viserys and Daenerys.
10:38 --> 10:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Now that I've discussed the alleged signs of the Prince's arrival in the world, we have to talk about characters that are believed to be the Prince who was promised.
10:47 --> 10:57 [SPEAKER_00]: So let me start this off with two characters we can conclude definitely aren't the Prince and they are Rager and Aegon Targaryen.
10:58 --> 11:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Clearly, Régar isn't the Prince who was promised.
11:00 --> 11:10 [SPEAKER_00]: If he were a Westeros would be beyond screwed, considering he's dead long before we saw the crazy stuff happening beyond the wall, via John's storyline with the Night's Watch.
11:10 --> 11:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, Eggon was a baby who got his head smashed in by Gregorc Cligang.
11:15 --> 11:18 [SPEAKER_00]: You might be wondering why either one could be the Prince.
11:19 --> 11:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, both are descendants of Aries and Raeala, being their son and grandson respectively.
11:26 --> 11:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Raegar was born just after the tragedy of Summerhall.
11:30 --> 11:33 [SPEAKER_00]: His mother went into labor after she was rescued from the ruins of the castle.
11:34 --> 11:43 [SPEAKER_00]: You could still smell the smoke from the horrible fire, and naturally there were a lot of salty tears shed from grief that most of House Targaryen died in the fire.
11:44 --> 11:50 [SPEAKER_00]: In case you're wondering, I discussed the tragedy of summer haul in episodes 2-17 and 2-18.
11:50 --> 11:54 [SPEAKER_00]: However, Régard doesn't really fit all the signs I listed before.
11:54 --> 11:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Régard actually believed Egon could be the prince.
11:58 --> 12:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Egon was born on Dragonstone, which is literally an island out in the salty sea.
12:04 --> 12:08 [SPEAKER_00]: There's also a volcano with plenty of smoke from the rumbling mountain.
12:08 --> 12:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Egon was apparently conceived when the righ comet street across the sky.
12:13 --> 12:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Victorian Greyjoy is a brother who bail on and you're on Greyjoy.
12:18 --> 12:26 [SPEAKER_00]: This character wasn't included in the TV show, which is why some of you non-book readers are probably confused who this guy is.
12:26 --> 12:29 [SPEAKER_00]: There are some people who propose he could be the prince.
12:30 --> 12:33 [SPEAKER_00]: Personally, I think there are humans make him the weakest candidate.
12:34 --> 12:40 [SPEAKER_00]: They stretch the interpretation of smoke being assigned by using smoke from a wound being cotterized.
12:41 --> 12:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Also read priest believes he's got a future involved with some important happenings.
12:47 --> 12:51 [SPEAKER_00]: But that still doesn't mean he is the prince.
12:52 --> 12:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Then we get to Stanis.
12:54 --> 12:59 [SPEAKER_00]: He's the one Melisandra believes is the chosen one, as we also saw in the TV show.
13:00 --> 13:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I discussed earlier about Lightbringer, which is something she orchestrated to make the prophecy fit her beliefs.
13:07 --> 13:11 [SPEAKER_00]: He was named Lord of Dragonstone, which counts as the salt and smoke.
13:12 --> 13:16 [SPEAKER_00]: The problem is, he's not directly related to Aries and Reyjela.
13:16 --> 13:21 [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that Melisandra believes he's the one makes me inclined to believe he's not.
13:21 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_00]: One consistent thing that comes up in the series is that people who try to interpret visions and prophecies tend to be wrong.
13:29 --> 13:34 [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't the first time literature explores the notion of people messing around with the future of facing consequences.
13:35 --> 13:40 [SPEAKER_00]: The final two are the ones most people suspect, John Snow and Daenerys Targaryen.
13:41 --> 13:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't lie.
13:42 --> 13:47 [SPEAKER_00]: If you believe the prophecies are true and pretty accurate, Daenerys Targaryen fits everything.
13:48 --> 13:50 [SPEAKER_00]: She's the daughter of Aries and Ray Yellow.
13:50 --> 13:55 [SPEAKER_00]: She hatched her three dragon eggs which were stone-like and not considered alive.
13:56 --> 13:58 [SPEAKER_00]: She was born on dragon stone for the salt and smoke.
13:59 --> 14:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Her hatching of the eggs could also fit the salt and smoke part as well.
14:04 --> 14:08 [SPEAKER_00]: And the red comet appearing in the sky was happening at the same time.
14:09 --> 14:18 [SPEAKER_00]: The only thing missing is light-bringer, which would be interesting to see if that ever comes up in the 6th novel, George has been working on since 2011.
14:19 --> 14:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Some people might argue about how the prophecy is for the Prince who was promised, as in a male figure.
14:27 --> 14:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Maester Amen brings this up in his conversation with Sam Walt Harley.
14:31 --> 14:35 [SPEAKER_00]: He points out that in Valerian, the prophecy uses a term that is gender neutral.
14:36 --> 14:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So hypothetically, it is possible that the one to save the world could be female.
14:41 --> 14:54 [SPEAKER_00]: As for John Snow, if you listen to the previous episode, I had discussed one of the most prevailing fan theories, which is the idea that John is really the son of Leanna Stark and Rick Artargarion.
14:55 --> 14:58 [SPEAKER_00]: If you somehow didn't listen to that episode, I highly recommend you do.
14:59 --> 15:08 [SPEAKER_00]: If we believe this theory that he is actually a Targaryen, he clearly fits the criteria of being descended from Rayela and Aries, just like Egg on Dead.
15:09 --> 15:11 [SPEAKER_00]: But what about the other criteria?
15:11 --> 15:20 [SPEAKER_00]: How John Snow fits the other criteria involves a lot of interpretation and possible mental gymnastics depending on your perspective.
15:21 --> 15:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Some people argue that John Snow choosing his duty to the night's watch over running off with a greed was like Azora High sacrificing his wife for a greater mission.
15:31 --> 15:38 [SPEAKER_00]: In the fifth novel, a dance with dragons, John dreams he is fighting the others with a red sword burning in his hand.
15:39 --> 15:42 [SPEAKER_00]: This ties with the Lightbringer Criteria.
15:43 --> 15:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Some argue that the final criteria happened during the mutiny at Castle Black.
15:48 --> 15:51 [SPEAKER_00]: John's wounds smoke in the cold air.
15:52 --> 16:01 [SPEAKER_00]: One of his attackers is the castle steward Bowen Marsh, who cries as they attack him, possibly out of guilt, or regret that things came to this.
16:02 --> 16:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the salt and smoke.
16:04 --> 16:12 [SPEAKER_00]: As for the star, well just before they stabbed John in the book, one of Stannis' men left behind at the castle was killed by one one.
16:13 --> 16:17 [SPEAKER_00]: The man's sigil included a star, and the banner was above John.
16:17 --> 16:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Just before the attack began, one one had killed the other man, and John was trying to calm him down when the mutiniers struck.
16:25 --> 16:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't pretend like this isn't an intriguing possibility.
16:28 --> 16:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I think John and Daenerys are the more likely candidates if we believe this prophecy is legit.
16:34 --> 16:37 [SPEAKER_00]: She's the more obvious literal interpretation.
16:38 --> 16:46 [SPEAKER_00]: However, we've also seen prophecies where, technically, the prediction happened, but in a way that people didn't expect it to.
16:47 --> 16:50 [SPEAKER_00]: A pretty good example is from a night of the seven kingdoms.
16:50 --> 16:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Both in the novella, the hedge knight, and in season one, Darren Targaryen gives dunk a prophecy about dunk and a dead dragon.
16:59 --> 17:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, dragons no longer exist during this time period, so we can assume it's probably meant to be a Targaryen.
17:07 --> 17:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, people wondered could it be Aryan since he's a Targaryen and proud of being one.
17:13 --> 17:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Not everyone thought it would be Baylor.
17:15 --> 17:20 [SPEAKER_00]: This is why I think it could be possible that it's not Daenerys, exactly because she is so obvious.
17:21 --> 17:25 [SPEAKER_00]: But we are left to wait whether George will truly answer those questions.
17:26 --> 17:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I would genuinely be curious to hear and read some comments from some of you with what you think about, anything at all I discussed in this episode.
17:34 --> 17:38 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think this prophecy means anything or is it a red herring?
17:39 --> 17:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Who do you believe is a Zorahe or the Prince who was promised?
17:43 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_00]: You can head over to the westernrocyprimer.com and leave comments on this episode's dedicated page.
17:49 --> 17:54 [SPEAKER_00]: Signing up to the membership on the website is free and allows you to leave comments about
17:56 --> 17:59 [SPEAKER_00]: And that just about covers the Prince who was promised.
17:59 --> 18:06 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in finding out more for yourself, feel free to go to the full show notes where I will have links.
18:06 --> 18:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Though be aware if you do any of this research, there will be spoilers to the novels, House of the Dragon, and HBO Max's future adaptations.
18:15 --> 18:20 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening and tune into the next episode where I'll be talking about the valencar.
18:21 --> 18:23 [SPEAKER_00]: What does valencar mean?
18:23 --> 18:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you'll have to tune in next time to find out.
18:27 --> 18:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Valar, more Googleis.
19:06 --> 19:08 [SPEAKER_00]: What did you think of this episode?
19:09 --> 19:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Check out the westerosieprimer.com and let me know what you think of this episode.
19:14 --> 19:18 [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a friend or two that might like the show, make sure to share.