In this episode, Liz reviews House of the Dragon’s episode “Tumbleton.”
She notes it contains more significant plot movement and setup. She discusses Ormund Hightower’s unusual dynamic with Daeron and the show’s claim that Alicent gave up Daeron to be raised in Oldtown. She questions Ormund’s apparent push to elevate Daeron as a Hightower-backed king.
She covers Criston Cole and Gwayne arriving at Harrenhal searching for Aemond and Alys Rivers’ apparent scheming.
Liz finds Aegon’s travel storyline unexpectedly interesting as it exposes him to common life but doubts it will reform him. She critiques Daemon’s Sheepstealer-related plot and strongly dislikes the writing for Rhaena.
Finally, she summarizes Rhaenyra’s challenges in King’s Landing, Alicent’s scene, Helaena’s new pregnancy (not in the book), and hopes for upcoming battles including Tumbleton and possibly the Butcher’s Ball.
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00:01 --> 00:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Westerosi Primer.
00:06 --> 00:12 [SPEAKER_00]: For full show notes and more, about all things Westeros, head to the Westerosiprimer.com.
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00:47 --> 00:50 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you very much.
01:00 --> 01:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Greetings, fellow accolites.
01:02 --> 01:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to another episode of the Westerosie Primer.
01:04 --> 01:05 [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Liz.
01:06 --> 01:08 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're new to this podcast, welcome.
01:08 --> 01:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you enjoyed this journey of all things Westeros.
01:12 --> 01:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And in this episode, I'll be talking about House of the Dragon episode titled Tumbledin.
01:18 --> 01:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is just to let everyone know that you can check out the Westerosie primer.com to find out how you can sign up to the newsletter where you will get periodic updates about new episode releases and also content related to all things ice and fire.
01:40 --> 01:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Now this week's episode.
01:43 --> 01:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So, unlike the previous episode, we got a lot more storyline happening.
01:49 --> 01:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Some are really significant, some are going to be more like set up for future episodes.
01:56 --> 02:00 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so, let us start off with...
02:01 --> 02:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Norman Heitauer.
02:03 --> 02:18 [SPEAKER_00]: His relationship with Deiron is pretty interesting because as gets discussed in a different part of the episode, Allison and Essence gave up Deiron to be raised in Old
02:27 --> 02:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I find that it's really strange that dynamic between day-run and warm and high-tower in the show because that is definitely not quite the relationship in the book, which is why I feel it's a little weird in my personal humble opinion.
02:44 --> 02:50 [SPEAKER_00]: From what I recall day-run was basically sent there in a way
02:55 --> 02:57 [SPEAKER_00]: is supposed to be squiring for a night.
02:57 --> 02:59 [SPEAKER_00]: That is, in essence, what he is doing.
02:59 --> 03:16 [SPEAKER_00]: It's also more similar to how Ned and Robert Brathian spent part of their childhood into early teen years in the veil of Aaron with John Aaron, instead of being back home at Storm's End or at Winterfell.
03:17 --> 03:21 [SPEAKER_00]: it's basically like foster parentage is what it is.
03:21 --> 03:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And the way they write day runs background is that it's almost as though he was given up to be raised by Allison's high tower family when the kid was very young, which really doesn't make much sense to me.
03:40 --> 03:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And
03:42 --> 03:56 [SPEAKER_00]: very few nobles even in the real world would do something like that unless there's very particular circumstances that would cause that to be a thing at all, which is why I just find the whole thing very strange.
03:57 --> 04:00 [SPEAKER_00]: But at any rate, so beyond that part,
04:01 --> 04:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting to see how they're trying to set up a big scheme happening related to tumbled in.
04:09 --> 04:24 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's also interesting that Mormon is deciding to have day-run in essence become a king or at least the king that the high towers will be backing, which is very strange decision
04:27 --> 04:42 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we're nearer to clear that Aegon is dead, but if you are under the belief that only males should have the right to the throne, then technically it should be aimed and if Aegon really was dead.
04:43 --> 04:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And the high towers through Orman, high tower in essence, is creating something similar to what we saw in Game of Thrones, which was the War of the Five Kings.
04:54 --> 05:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Your potentially creating a situation where it would be no longer the green and black faction, you would, in essence, be creating almost like a split faction within the green faction, which is, again, very strange and doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because in no way
05:18 --> 05:29 [SPEAKER_00]: day-run as being the candidate to become the one on the iron throne, as long as aim and distal alive, as far as everyone else is aware of.
05:30 --> 05:32 [SPEAKER_00]: So that just straight up doesn't make any sense.
05:33 --> 05:38 [SPEAKER_00]: It remains to be seen what will happen with Ormond High Tower,
05:39 --> 05:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Based off of the preview, they indicate that it's actually clips from several of the episodes coming up in the season, but it looks that we will be getting our battle of Tumbleton.
05:52 --> 05:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I will be curious to see if they also show the
06:03 --> 06:16 [SPEAKER_00]: If you didn't already listen to my season two episodes where I discuss the dance of the dragons, which is essentially what this TV show is about, then I'm not going to spoil what that battle is about.
06:16 --> 06:21 [SPEAKER_00]: But for the time being, I guess that's all I'm going to say about that particular storyline.
06:22 --> 06:26 [SPEAKER_00]: So in a loosely connected storyline is Kristen Cole.
06:26 --> 06:35 [SPEAKER_00]: We find out that he and Gwain have arrived at Haren Hall to find out where the hell Amen does.
06:35 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And they are led to believe that Amen is no longer at Haren Hall.
06:41 --> 06:52 [SPEAKER_00]: And now they are headed off to try to meet up with the high towers to do a hammer and an adult type of strategy, I guess you could say.
06:53 --> 07:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It's very strange to me that they would do things this way, but all right.
07:00 --> 07:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's also interesting to see how they readily believe that Aimond is gone.
07:05 --> 07:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I suppose if they are flew off to go hunting or whatever, then they have no reason to doubt Alice Rivers.
07:14 --> 07:20 [SPEAKER_00]: But I am just very curious as to where the hell she hid Aimond that they couldn't find him in the castle.
07:21 --> 07:22 [SPEAKER_00]: But who knows?
07:23 --> 07:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't understand the logic of some of the writing at
07:28 --> 07:48 [SPEAKER_00]: But as you can clearly see if you saw the preview, Amen is definitely still at the castle and I know for fact he is still at the castle because again, if they are basically sticking with a lot of the major storybeats that George established in fire and blood, then yeah, he is definitely still at
07:53 --> 08:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, so it remains to be seen where that's going to go, which again, I won't spoil for people who didn't already listen to season two of this podcast.
08:04 --> 08:09 [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, Alice Rivers definitely is scheming for her own benefit.
08:10 --> 08:12 [SPEAKER_00]: We show, see what that goes.
08:13 --> 08:18 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we get the storyline with Egon.
08:19 --> 08:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's really interesting to follow him.
08:23 --> 08:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I will admit, I'm surprised that I think it's actually more interesting than I thought it would be.
08:28 --> 08:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Aegon is somebody who grew up with privilege, lived in a privilege bubble.
08:35 --> 08:47 [SPEAKER_00]: He had members of his family, and some of their hangars on, basically placing him in a bubble, convincing him that he is the king, and should be the king.
08:48 --> 08:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, he's been basically spoiled and never had to accept the consequences of a whole lot of things.
08:56 --> 09:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And this story line of him traveling around a bit is actually causing him to learn a bit more about how regular people live, but at the same time he recognizes that
09:13 --> 09:27 [SPEAKER_00]: He's starting to see how there's a hierarchy in this society where people with the most power, whether it's influence, money, or just being the most aggressive has all the power.
09:28 --> 09:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Though I'm skeptical that all of this is going to ever make him into a better person.
09:34 --> 09:48 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a contrast to what Jamie Lannister went through in a similar story line in the original game of thrones and also actually in the ice and fire novels.
09:49 --> 09:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Jamie ends up going back to his position in King's Landing with a different perspective on life.
09:56 --> 09:57 [SPEAKER_00]: He
09:57 --> 10:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Finally, recognizes that there are consequences to the things that he and other people like him do, and recognizing how a lot of other people have to go through worse things than he does, gives him the perspective that he needs to be a lot more thoughtful,
10:22 --> 10:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I get the sneaky suspicion that Egg on, if he ever gets the opportunity to go back into a position of authority and power, I really doubt he's going to change that much.
10:36 --> 10:41 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't come across as the type of person who is going to take all of this as
10:43 --> 10:46 [SPEAKER_00]: life lessons that will make you a better person.
10:46 --> 10:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it would just show him that there are names to be taken down and to be dealt with at a later date.
10:55 --> 10:57 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's just my personal opinion.
10:57 --> 10:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know about all of you.
10:59 --> 11:05 [SPEAKER_00]: But it will be interesting to see where he goes as the story keeps going on.
11:20 --> 11:40 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we get another storyline where we have Damon trying to help Reneera get some money given that the green faction basically split up the Royal Treasury and sent it all over the place and they can't get the money back.
11:41 --> 12:00 [SPEAKER_00]: It also results in Damon finally finding out who ended up on sheep stealer, and then we have that reunion scene that was not going the way that Damon would have expected, and it ends off in a strange place.
12:02 --> 12:10 [SPEAKER_00]: And then Damon tries to cover for Reina by bringing her, somebody he claims is the writer.
12:10 --> 12:21 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's supposed to be a way for her to move past it and focus on other things instead of obsessively holding on to the grief.
12:22 --> 12:23 [SPEAKER_00]: which I'm not going to lie.
12:23 --> 12:27 [SPEAKER_00]: It does kind of make sense why he does what he did.
12:28 --> 12:34 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just going to be something that she needs time to eventually move past.
12:35 --> 12:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have to say that this is a storyline where I am just not a big fan of.
12:42 --> 12:45 [SPEAKER_00]: I could get into a huge log rant about it.
12:46 --> 12:56 [SPEAKER_00]: about why I don't like this rain a storyline, and this episode had so many things about it that I didn't like about the storyline.
12:56 --> 13:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm considering making this into a full host on the blog on the website, but I'm just going to point out a couple of things that I really didn't like about the scene.
13:10 --> 13:28 [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, Reina comes off as pretty bratty in this episode of I'm being honest with you because, yes, it makes sense that she would feel smaller and neglected because for the longest time she didn't have a dragon.
13:29 --> 13:42 [SPEAKER_00]: But I personally think that whole speech that she gives about how she's the shame of the Targaryens because she never had a dragon until now, blah, blah, blah, blah.
13:43 --> 13:44 [SPEAKER_00]: That's all complete crap.
13:44 --> 13:50 [SPEAKER_00]: If I'm being honest, and I'm trying not to swear, but that is just honestly a load of crap.
13:50 --> 13:51 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
13:52 --> 14:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Because first of all, we already had that speel all the way back in the first season with Aement, because guess what Reina, you were not the first Targaryen to never have a dragon, or at least you didn't have a dragon for the longest time.
14:09 --> 14:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Dame in himself,
14:11 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_00]: didn't have a dragon for a few years actually, if a crack sees was actually someone else's dragon and he had to basically wait for the previous rider to die before he got a chance to claim the dragon, which is why it's silly to me, because literally the only reason why
14:41 --> 14:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Karaxi's was because the previous writer was Amin Targaryen, who was Reini's father, and therefore Damon's uncle.
14:53 --> 15:02 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just kind of silly using that as an argument as to like why she's the shame of the Targaryens, which is, again, goofy.
15:02 --> 15:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, you have plenty of other Targaryens I could name that never got a dragon.
15:10 --> 15:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's a little fact that I mentioned in the second season of this podcast, which if you're new to this show, you wouldn't have been aware of this.
15:18 --> 15:29 [SPEAKER_00]: But King J. Harris and his wife Alessane had multiple children, and at least half of them never had dragons.
15:30 --> 15:52 [SPEAKER_00]: They did try to leave dragon eggs to see if they will hatch in the crib, and when the eggs don't hatch, it means that there's a possibility that they could claim an existing dragon if there was one available and there were certainly ones available.
15:52 --> 16:03 [SPEAKER_00]: But King J. Harris was very cautious and had set rules about which of his children were allowed to try to claim a dragon.
16:04 --> 16:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So again, that's all nonsense that the writers wrote in this episode for
16:14 --> 16:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're not the only Targaryen to never have a dragon at all, so I will heavily criticize the writers for this because it's just goofy.
16:25 --> 16:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I get it that a lot of people watching the show are not super familiar with the lore, but I'm just telling you as somebody who is more familiar with the lore, it's not sense.
16:36 --> 16:39 [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, I'm gonna end my big rant right there.
16:40 --> 16:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the final storyline I'm going to get into is Reneira.
16:47 --> 16:54 [SPEAKER_00]: So Reneira is still trying to juggle being the ruler on the iron throne now.
16:55 --> 17:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And she has to deal with Coralus is unhappy with her, so she's technically without her hand of the queen working with her to stabilize the realm.
17:07 --> 17:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Then, of course, we had her dealing with Damon coming back with who he claims is sheep stealer's brighter.
17:15 --> 17:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And she's also trying to understand more about Orman High Tower.
17:21 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's really interesting her scene with Allison.
17:25 --> 17:35 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's where Allison reveals how she gave up day-run for fostering when he was very, very young.
17:35 --> 17:40 [SPEAKER_00]: So he may not remember a whole lot about his mother to begin with.
17:41 --> 18:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And in a sense, I understand why she did it, but like I said earlier in the episode when I talked about the whole Mormon, high tower storyline, that kind of decision really doesn't make a whole lot of sense personally speaking, because there is no way anybody would give up a child that
18:09 --> 18:19 [SPEAKER_00]: It would never have happened in real life, and it also never really happened in West Rose either, so that's a weird choice again.
18:19 --> 18:30 [SPEAKER_00]: But she also has to deal with some disgruntled people still within King's Landing, and she's going to end up in a situation where she's going to include
18:37 --> 18:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I would say that's a very typical Targaryen thing in the sense that many Targaryens in the dynasty, which, again, I discussed to some degree in season two, have a tendency to answer their problems in very heavy-handed ways.
18:57 --> 19:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And that certainly includes Daenerys in the Ice and Fire novels aka Game of Thrones, which we have seen, but this is a house of the Dragon season, not Game of Thrones.
19:11 --> 19:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So.
19:12 --> 19:13 [SPEAKER_00]: that's about as far as I'll go with that.
19:14 --> 19:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's also intriguing that they decided to have Helena realize that she's pregnant, which I have to tell you is definitely not a thing in the book
19:38 --> 19:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if they're trying to imply that this pregnancy could actually be the absent baby male or that was supposed to be a character featured in the second season.
19:56 --> 19:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
19:58 --> 20:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I have no idea if this is the writing team trying to address the complaints that people like me had about how they got rid of the third kid, but I just think it's very strange that they wrote this that they made this kind of a writing decision.
20:16 --> 20:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I have no idea what they're going to do with this.
20:20 --> 20:38 [SPEAKER_00]: It's ultimately going to put Reneera into a very difficult position because if she ever found out that her half-sister is pregnant again, it's going to create a whole lot of problems for her, especially if the baby turned out to be a boy.
20:38 --> 20:47 [SPEAKER_00]: There are more things happening in this episode, but some things I was not a big fan of as you have literally just heard.
20:47 --> 21:01 [SPEAKER_00]: I will have to see how it turns out in the next four episodes to see how they try to close things out for the season.
21:01 --> 21:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully they will include
21:08 --> 21:14 [SPEAKER_00]: It appears to me from the preview that they are going to finally show us the Battle of Tumbledin.
21:15 --> 21:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm personally hoping that we do see the Butcher's Ball.
21:20 --> 21:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Possibly it gets pushed off into season four.
21:23 --> 21:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but yeah, I have my own predictions.
21:28 --> 21:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Like I said about what I think could potentially happen in the final four episodes of the season.
21:35 --> 21:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I will be curious if four season four whether they stick with the eight episode run that they have been doing, or if they will go back to the 10 episode season like they used to do, but at any rate that is all for this week's episode.
22:39 --> 22:40 [SPEAKER_00]: What did you think of this episode?
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